Comments for Jesus and the Culture Wars http://revcjconner.com Christian Life in the American Church Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:38:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 Comment on Tiller is not a Martyr by CJ Conner http://revcjconner.com/?p=418&cpage=1#comment-795 CJ Conner Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:38:13 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=418#comment-795 Thank you for your comments. We don't disagree about the understanding of sin boldly you've articulated, but in the context of your argument, we might have different understandings of what Luther meant when he said "sin boldly". Maybe we can have a more extended conversation about that. In relation to the idea of legalism and the pharisees as it relates to the Lutheran Reformation, we would probably diverge quite a bit. I have a different understanding of the identity of the Pharisees, though, so I would need to know who you think they were to clarify common ground there first. I think the pharisees were known for their legalism only in a certain historical context of that word, as well as Luther, who was undoubtedly among the most legalistic of the reformers. Tell me more. Rev. CJ Conner Thank you for your comments. We don’t disagree about the understanding of sin boldly you’ve articulated, but in the context of your argument, we might have different understandings of what Luther meant when he said “sin boldly”. Maybe we can have a more extended conversation about that.

In relation to the idea of legalism and the pharisees as it relates to the Lutheran Reformation, we would probably diverge quite a bit. I have a different understanding of the identity of the Pharisees, though, so I would need to know who you think they were to clarify common ground there first. I think the pharisees were known for their legalism only in a certain historical context of that word, as well as Luther, who was undoubtedly among the most legalistic of the reformers.

Tell me more.

Rev. CJ Conner

]]> Comment on Tiller is not a Martyr by Centrality http://revcjconner.com/?p=418&cpage=1#comment-789 Centrality Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:26:50 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=418#comment-789 Hi, interesting topics. A few things, as usual, once something is said 500 years ago, sin comes in, and then they get misinterpreted. The person who said "sin boldly" was Martin Luther 500 years ago. It is actually a great quote -- in context of understanding it. To understand the comment you have to see it in context. He said it in the face of a legalistic, pharasaical, Christian Church that needed reformation. Luther provided that. As a matter of fact scripture tells us where sin increases, grace increases all the more.... showing us the power of Jesus Christ on the cross. Also, Luther tried to see sin at a deeper level and not at the surface level. Repentance and a deep understanding of sin were regular discussions of Martin Luthers table and they still are in many Lutheran Churches. The problem we have in Church today is that we continue to be legalistic and pharasaical. In an attempt to offset this legalism, many Churchs have taken a shallow view of sin and take the other opposing stance. In other words, the pharasaism in Churches is also creating the 'soft on sin' side of the Church as each church body takes its side on the issues. Neither side is demonstrating the power of the Cross and the power of Jesus Christ in how they behave. Check this out for more understanding: http://centralityofthegospel.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/the-gospel-and-personal-criticism/ Hi,

interesting topics. A few things, as usual, once something is said 500 years ago, sin comes in, and then they get misinterpreted. The person who said “sin boldly” was Martin Luther 500 years ago. It is actually a great quote — in context of understanding it. To understand the comment you have to see it in context. He said it in the face of a legalistic, pharasaical, Christian Church that needed reformation. Luther provided that.

As a matter of fact scripture tells us where sin increases, grace increases all the more…. showing us the power of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Also, Luther tried to see sin at a deeper level and not at the surface level. Repentance and a deep understanding of sin were regular discussions of Martin Luthers table and they still are in many Lutheran Churches.

The problem we have in Church today is that we continue to be legalistic and pharasaical. In an attempt to offset this legalism, many Churchs have taken a shallow view of sin and take the other opposing stance. In other words, the pharasaism in Churches is also creating the ’soft on sin’ side of the Church as each church body takes its side on the issues. Neither side is demonstrating the power of the Cross and the power of Jesus Christ in how they behave.

Check this out for more understanding:
http://centralityofthegospel.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/the-gospel-and-personal-criticism/

]]> Comment on As Tiller’s Murder Proves, Lack of Church Discipline Can be Deadly by CJ Conner http://revcjconner.com/?p=413&cpage=1#comment-780 CJ Conner Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:30:35 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=413#comment-780 There is truth in that tongue in cheek jest... Follow a god-hating religious progressive's teachings and logic to their logical end, and they only lead to death, destruction, and devastation. They cause so much havoc and pain in the world and against the innocent, but finally, God will let them live by their own rules if they like- it's just they might not like the outcomes. Only Jesus Christ Saves. No strange utopian imposition of abortion and "choice" to kill babies for the "good of women and society"- in the strange quest to fashion a world in their own image and form their own "system" of salvation- will ever lead to anything but death and destruction. I abhor abortion, would never be a part of one, and so I know this one thing for sure- nobody will have any reason to shoot me in the forehead for killing babies. :-) There is truth in that tongue in cheek jest… Follow a god-hating religious progressive’s teachings and logic to their logical end, and they only lead to death, destruction, and devastation. They cause so much havoc and pain in the world and against the innocent, but finally, God will let them live by their own rules if they like- it’s just they might not like the outcomes. Only Jesus Christ Saves. No strange utopian imposition of abortion and “choice” to kill babies for the “good of women and society”- in the strange quest to fashion a world in their own image and form their own “system” of salvation- will ever lead to anything but death and destruction. I abhor abortion, would never be a part of one, and so I know this one thing for sure- nobody will have any reason to shoot me in the forehead for killing babies. :-)

]]> Comment on As Tiller’s Murder Proves, Lack of Church Discipline Can be Deadly by CJ Conner http://revcjconner.com/?p=413&cpage=1#comment-779 CJ Conner Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:24:46 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=413#comment-779 We see completely eye to eye on this one. I would further say that there is the invisible Church- that is, the real Church that we don't see necessarily because it isn't represented by denominational structures, etc.. ELCA is not the church, in that regard. Haven't they departed from just about every Biblical teaching accepted since the time of Christ? But there are ELCA member Churches that still remain a part of the invisible Church. They defy the national body in their faithful adherence to the Bible. There are also pastors, but the ELCA doesn't train this kind of pastor anymore, and hasn't for some time. So I guess it is no surprise that Tiller's pastors enabled, embraced, and even saw Tiller's work as quasi sacremental. Those aren't pastors- those are wolves in sheep's clothing. Churches that allow such wolves to devour the sheep are not representatives of the good shepherd- not real churches, not true christian denominations... what do you think? Thank you for be so thought provoking. We see completely eye to eye on this one. I would further say that there is the invisible Church- that is, the real Church that we don’t see necessarily because it isn’t represented by denominational structures, etc.. ELCA is not the church, in that regard. Haven’t they departed from just about every Biblical teaching accepted since the time of Christ? But there are ELCA member Churches that still remain a part of the invisible Church. They defy the national body in their faithful adherence to the Bible. There are also pastors, but the ELCA doesn’t train this kind of pastor anymore, and hasn’t for some time. So I guess it is no surprise that Tiller’s pastors enabled, embraced, and even saw Tiller’s work as quasi sacremental. Those aren’t pastors- those are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Churches that allow such wolves to devour the sheep are not representatives of the good shepherd- not real churches, not true christian denominations… what do you think? Thank you for be so thought provoking.

]]> Comment on As Tiller’s Murder Proves, Lack of Church Discipline Can be Deadly by SAM http://revcjconner.com/?p=413&cpage=1#comment-777 SAM Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:12:00 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=413#comment-777 I object to calling Dr. Tiller's death anything less than what it has been called for years now. An Abortion. The gunman is the arbortionist in this case. Headline should have read "Abortion Doctor Aborted". I'm almost certain that one day soon some murderer will take the stand and claim that he was just performing an abortion. When he does, the courts will need to determine what abortion truly is and that's when we will see if this country is truly on God's side or somewhere else. I'm truly sorry that Dr. Tiller's life was aborted at this late stage, but afterall man's got the right to choose as much as a woman. Women have always had the right to choose to murder their babies or not. When has the right to choose to do wrong ever been negated in America? Or for that matter since Adam and Eve? ps-this is all tongue in cheek [whatever that means] in order to make one think. I object to calling Dr. Tiller’s death anything less than what it has been called for years now. An Abortion. The gunman is the arbortionist in this case. Headline should have read “Abortion Doctor Aborted”.
I’m almost certain that one day soon some murderer will take the stand and claim that he was just performing an abortion. When he does, the courts will need to determine what abortion truly is and that’s when we will see if this country is truly on God’s side or somewhere else.

I’m truly sorry that Dr. Tiller’s life was aborted at this late stage, but afterall man’s got the right to choose as much as a woman. Women have always had the right to choose to murder their babies or not. When has the right to choose to do wrong ever been negated in America? Or for that matter since Adam and Eve?

ps-this is all tongue in cheek [whatever that means] in order to make one think.

]]> Comment on As Tiller’s Murder Proves, Lack of Church Discipline Can be Deadly by Joe in FTW http://revcjconner.com/?p=413&cpage=1#comment-775 Joe in FTW Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:18:46 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=413#comment-775 Rev CJ Conner Thank you for your reply. I do agree that each church needs to be active in calling each of their members to obedience. However, a congregation is not able to call a member into obedience to something that is contrary to the teachings of the church. What was the church to do? If they confronted Dr Tiller, what rule of justice could they engage him on? As long as they hold to the position they do on abortion, Dr Tiller was already obedient (as far as I can tell). Note: I do NOT claim Dr Tiller's actions are obedient to God's position and teachings in this regard. Your closing on the last comment is compelling. But the "mistake" is not one of failed church discipline, it is one of church doctrine. If you disagree, then what teaching of Dr Tiller's church would you have had them discipline him under? Thank you again and have a blessed day! I applaude (loudly) your call to increased church discipline! Rev CJ Conner

Thank you for your reply.

I do agree that each church needs to be active in calling each of their members to obedience. However, a congregation is not able to call a member into obedience to something that is contrary to the teachings of the church.

What was the church to do? If they confronted Dr Tiller, what rule of justice could they engage him on? As long as they hold to the position they do on abortion, Dr Tiller was already obedient (as far as I can tell).

Note: I do NOT claim Dr Tiller’s actions are obedient to God’s position and teachings in this regard.

Your closing on the last comment is compelling. But the “mistake” is not one of failed church discipline, it is one of church doctrine. If you disagree, then what teaching of Dr Tiller’s church would you have had them discipline him under?

Thank you again and have a blessed day!

I applaude (loudly) your call to increased church discipline!

]]> Comment on As Tiller’s Murder Proves, Lack of Church Discipline Can be Deadly by CJ Conner http://revcjconner.com/?p=413&cpage=1#comment-773 CJ Conner Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:47:53 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=413#comment-773 It is true, churches blindly follow the unscriptural, mealy mouthed pronouncements of their denominations. Reformation Lutheran is every bit as wacked out liberal as Bishop Mark Hanson's ELCA office on Higgins Road. In the end, however, regardless of any external forces, it is 100% the responsibility of the local congregation to discipline their people. This may mean not allowing an openly gay man teach Sunday morning Bible Study, or keeping a Dennis Rader off your Church board, but the Pastors at Reformation Lutheran have violated their office and calling, which transcends denominations. In great part because of their failure, Tiller is dead. It would be different if they had called him to repentance and he refused- in that case he should be excommunicated, however, these pastors did not even do that. He paid the lion's share to build their nice new building and offices. There is a saying: Prisons are filled with the mistakes of Lawyers Graves are filled with the mistakes of Doctors Hell is filled with the mistakes of Pastors It is true, churches blindly follow the unscriptural, mealy mouthed pronouncements of their denominations. Reformation Lutheran is every bit as wacked out liberal as Bishop Mark Hanson’s ELCA office on Higgins Road. In the end, however, regardless of any external forces, it is 100% the responsibility of the local congregation to discipline their people. This may mean not allowing an openly gay man teach Sunday morning Bible Study, or keeping a Dennis Rader off your Church board, but the Pastors at Reformation Lutheran have violated their office and calling, which transcends denominations. In great part because of their failure, Tiller is dead. It would be different if they had called him to repentance and he refused- in that case he should be excommunicated, however, these pastors did not even do that. He paid the lion’s share to build their nice new building and offices.
There is a saying:
Prisons are filled with the mistakes of Lawyers
Graves are filled with the mistakes of Doctors
Hell is filled with the mistakes of Pastors

]]> Comment on As Tiller’s Murder Proves, Lack of Church Discipline Can be Deadly by Joe in FTW http://revcjconner.com/?p=413&cpage=1#comment-769 Joe in FTW Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:19:07 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=413#comment-769 To the previous commenters: Agreed, the gunman is the killer. To the author of this blog, Rev CJ Conner: While understanding the hyperbole of stating that the church is responsible for not engaging in “church discipline”, I humbly submit the following in which I believe it is made evident that church doctrine and not church discipline is the fault. When we, the created, seek to amend God’s Laws, we are in error and any number of evils should be expected to flow out of it. In this case, I would name Dr Tiller’s abortions as well as his own murder as examples of such evils. Dr Tiller's church (ref 1), Reformation Lutheran Church, ELCA (Witchita, KS) is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Chruch in America (ELCA) (ref 2). The ELCA has a stance on abortion listed on their web site (ref 3) for less-than casual reading. The stance has the following statistics: 12 pages (as shown in their pdf version) 403 paragraphs 4,613 words 23,968 non-space characters If you are looking for a simple statement pro or con ... you are out of luck. Instead, be prepared for a very firm "maybe": From Section I.C.: "The language used in discussing abortion should ignore neither the value of unborn life nor the value of the woman and her other relationships. It should neither obscure the moral seriousness of the decision faced by the woman nor hide the moral value of the newly conceived life. Nor is it helpful to use the language of "rights" in absolute ways that imply that no other significant moral claims intrude. A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be born, nor does a pregnant woman have an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy. The concern for both the life of the woman and the developing life in her womb expresses a common commitment to life. This requires that we move beyond the usual "pro-life" versus "pro-choice" language in discussing abortion." If the church is not willing to take a stand ... where is the room for church discipline? References: 1. Dr Tiller's church: www.reformation-lutheran.org 2. ELCA web site: www.elca.org 3. ELCA stance on abortion: www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx To the previous commenters: Agreed, the gunman is the killer.

To the author of this blog, Rev CJ Conner:
While understanding the hyperbole of stating that the church is responsible for not engaging in “church discipline”, I humbly submit the following in which I believe it is made evident that church doctrine and not church discipline is the fault. When we, the created, seek to amend God’s Laws, we are in error and any number of evils should be expected to flow out of it. In this case, I would name Dr Tiller’s abortions as well as his own murder as examples of such evils.

Dr Tiller’s church (ref 1), Reformation Lutheran Church, ELCA (Witchita, KS) is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Chruch in America (ELCA) (ref 2). The ELCA has a stance on abortion listed on their web site (ref 3) for less-than casual reading.

The stance has the following statistics:
12 pages (as shown in their pdf version)
403 paragraphs
4,613 words
23,968 non-space characters

If you are looking for a simple statement pro or con … you are out of luck. Instead, be prepared for a very firm “maybe”:

From Section I.C.:
“The language used in discussing abortion should ignore neither the value of unborn life nor the value of the woman and her other relationships. It should neither obscure the moral seriousness of the decision faced by the woman nor hide the moral value of the newly conceived life. Nor is it helpful to use the language of “rights” in absolute ways that imply that no other significant moral claims intrude. A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be born, nor does a pregnant woman have an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy. The concern for both the life of the woman and the developing life in her womb expresses a common commitment to life. This requires that we move beyond the usual “pro-life” versus “pro-choice” language in discussing abortion.”

If the church is not willing to take a stand … where is the room for church discipline?

References:
1. Dr Tiller’s church: http://www.reformation-lutheran.org
2. ELCA web site: http://www.elca.org
3. ELCA stance on abortion: http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx

]]> Comment on The ELCA’s Widening Chasm Over Homosexuality by Terry http://revcjconner.com/?p=397&cpage=1#comment-764 Terry Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:40:32 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=397#comment-764 Thank you for your honesty ! I too do not grieve the death of this man . I do not believe violence is a solution to lawless acts, but we serve a God of order and law.. I pray his forgiveness on the murderer and his judgement on Tiller Thank you for your honesty ! I too do not grieve the death of this man .
I do not believe violence is a solution to lawless acts, but we serve a God of order and law..
I pray his forgiveness on the murderer and his judgement on Tiller

]]> Comment on As Tiller’s Murder Proves, Lack of Church Discipline Can be Deadly by Kim Lopez http://revcjconner.com/?p=413&cpage=1#comment-763 Kim Lopez Mon, 01 Jun 2009 19:57:54 +0000 http://revcjconner.com/?p=413#comment-763 Amen to your blog! I understand murder is wrong (unborn and born) however, what got me so upset was the LACK of church discipline in this country! Give me a break - this guy was serving as a LEADER in his "reformed" churcH????!!!! He was ushering????? Where is the authority of scripture and the conviction of scripture at this church????? Woe to the pastor in Wichita! George Tiller has already faced his judgment and God has been glorified once again in sentencing him to damnation for breaking His laws! Amen to your blog! I understand murder is wrong (unborn and born) however, what got me so upset was the LACK of church discipline in this country! Give me a break – this guy was serving as a LEADER in his “reformed” churcH????!!!! He was ushering????? Where is the authority of scripture and the conviction of scripture at this church????? Woe to the pastor in Wichita! George Tiller has already faced his judgment and God has been glorified once again in sentencing him to damnation for breaking His laws!

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